tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post5904600480898125601..comments2023-11-02T05:29:57.954-04:00Comments on From the Heart: Profanity in Print by Terry BurnsAndy Scheer, Hartline Literaryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09010440105558099014noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-82265430836679246092013-11-18T10:34:38.545-05:002013-11-18T10:34:38.545-05:00As I said you are certainly free to write as you w...As I said you are certainly free to write as you wish. I assume that you are writing for the mainstream market as most Christian market editors that I know have as low of a tolerance for profanity as I do.Terry Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14526255183090554401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-73736631174603666432013-11-18T06:43:49.340-05:002013-11-18T06:43:49.340-05:00When you say story, do you mean plot? A good story...When you say story, do you mean plot? A good story can't be told in poor or lazy words! A good choice of words is necessary to bolster/complement a good plot: one without the other makes for bad balance. And I think it's just as lazy to ignore the wording of one's writing, or consider it as second-rate. The choice of words is all about HOW the story is told - and let's face it, if it's told poorly, then the story will not interest (unless it itself has an racy or unrelentingly exciting plot). But it depends on genre. For much writing, it's key to use words carefully. And if I decide to use a profanity, it is not down to laziness. That's hard for me to swallow. It's down to a considered choice, based on each individual word: if this word most effectively reveals who my character is, how they would act/react, then it stays. I would never include a swear word as part of the authorial voice, because that's a different issue. It depends on the genre again: the writing I attempt is neither for laughs or to entertain solely with a fast-paced plot. I want it to be true to life. and not to gloss over or elide aspects of life that do happen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-73187532863821842942013-11-16T09:16:14.228-05:002013-11-16T09:16:14.228-05:00Anonymous, it is my opinion that it is the story t...Anonymous, it is my opinion that it is the story that is the most important thing. If a story is so weak that word choice makes a significant difference, then it isn't worth our time anyway. The use of profanity is a lazy way of writing, just as it as lazy way of telling jokes. The standup comedians who use profanity get a lot of laughs, but there is no meat to their jokes. The guys who are truly funny are the ones who leave off the profanity and still get laughs. The same is true of writers. A truly skilled writer can move the reader without the use of profanity. Timothy Fishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06554064732811895577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-32439612783343095812013-11-16T08:15:42.278-05:002013-11-16T08:15:42.278-05:00I find it hard to accept that leaving out profanit...I find it hard to accept that leaving out profanity makes for a more skilful writer. Surely, good writing means using THE correct word every time, the most accurate and effective word. Sometimes, and not always, this will be a swear word. But i completely understand your viewpoint, and of course you are perfectly within your rights to select what you represent, especially as you hold such strong convictions. I just thought there was very little by way of comments on the opposite viewpoint! I did find the article useful, so thanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-23738611881425884182013-11-15T21:25:15.013-05:002013-11-15T21:25:15.013-05:00There certainly might have been a better choice of...There certainly might have been a better choice of words, but the point is that was the word he used. And I can see you are one of those people that think profanity is necessary and I could not disagree more . . . and will not represent it. It is easy to make a case for why it needs to be done but it takes a real writer to write effectively without resorting to it.<br /><br />You are free to write whatever you think is appropriate and I am free to choose what I will represent and what I won't. Terry Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14526255183090554401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-76772821921881033762013-11-15T19:27:28.773-05:002013-11-15T19:27:28.773-05:00*will do much more to make them THINK, not thing.....*will do much more to make them THINK, not thing...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-40210973987217840102013-11-15T19:21:23.568-05:002013-11-15T19:21:23.568-05:00I found the story about your grandfather comical, ...I found the story about your grandfather comical, but I think there are plenty of words which would be far more effective than "gee" in getting across the point. The use of "gee" makes me think that he's a lovable creature and not truly vexated beyond bearing - as he's so controlled in his language.I also feel it completely undermines the skillful build-up preceding it; using such a diluted word makes me want to giggle when I read it. It just seems "off", somehow askew. <br />How can we portray real people without using their real words? And how can we show their words to be wrong/shocking unless we present those words and they strike the reader as wrong/shocking? To say "he cursed" is a much more forgivable, easy-to-brush-over statement, which I would even argue, makes it seem MORE ok to swear: if we can complacently say "x or y swore", there is similarly no sense that the author disapproves. <br />And surely the biggest problem is conflating the views and actions of the characters with those of the author: nothing could be further from the truth or highlight a bad reading practice. Bill Sykes may not have sworn, but Dicken's work signally fails to reach the highest levels of "Art" because he has a tendency to sentimentalise, to portray the world in a skewed, exaggerated manner. It certainly isn't realism, in its strictest sense. <br />If we want to impact people, it can be just as effective to show the emptiness of certain ways of life, as to insist on glossing over them. An accurate portrayal - one that a reader can relate to intimately - will do much more to make them thing than a "censored" or "clean" version. Again, if a character swears, it is not the author who is swearing, or condoning swearing: it is the character alone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-46097784632627131462010-07-30T13:06:56.259-04:002010-07-30T13:06:56.259-04:00I agree with you. The world knows how Christians a...I agree with you. The world knows how Christians are supposed to act. If they pick up our books and find the same trash, they'll immediately brand us hypocrites. And you know something? They'd be right. <br /><br />I answer to God, not the market or any man's opinion. God says He'll judge every idle word. Christian writers use many words, and we'll have to account for them all.Susan J. Reinhardthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07461276857852409546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-60120566283982110982010-07-09T20:36:33.506-04:002010-07-09T20:36:33.506-04:00Profanity is nothing new. Many great books have b...Profanity is nothing new. Many great books have been written by the masters who did not feel the need to use it. That says something to me. Perhaps we're just more shallow in this day and age. Profanity does not offend me, I suppose I'm "used" to it. I do not use it in my writing because I don't want to. For me, it's a personal choice.Pegg Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17113756304449398701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-89210748123417307922010-07-09T12:13:31.874-04:002010-07-09T12:13:31.874-04:00How do you show it? Let me tell you a true story. ...How do you show it? Let me tell you a true story. The entire family agrees my grandfather never said a cuss-word in his entire life. One day he was working on his old model A and nothing was going right. The more things messed up the madder he got. He got so red in the face and neck and so agitated that the kids were actually afraid and cowering on the porch. Then he twisted off the head of a bolt. He stepped back, threw the wrench he was holding completely out of sight. He stood, sweat pouring from him, shaking both fists at the sky, and in a huge voice screamed "Gee!!!"<br /><br />What word of profanity could I put in there that would make that image stronger? Like I say, true story.Terry Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14526255183090554401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-52898436737778992492010-07-09T10:29:37.316-04:002010-07-09T10:29:37.316-04:00Terry, I agree with you. Profanity has no place in...Terry, I agree with you. Profanity has no place in Christian fiction, plus, you might alienate potential readers if they open the book and see that printed on the page. They might get upset and think..."But I thought this was a Christian book." There are ways to show cursing without using the actual words, letting the reader fill in the blanks for him or herself.Cecelia Dowdyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07173806883218875753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-26901191590979222352010-07-09T09:21:31.212-04:002010-07-09T09:21:31.212-04:00Someone asked about the logical reasons for using ...Someone asked about the logical reasons for using profanity. The justification I usually see is something along the lines of that’s the way the world talks and since we have to have worldly readers if we want to reach them for Christ we must speak to them in a way they understand.<br /><br />Anonymous 4:52 asks a good question, “*How* do you *show* them using the language?” First, this question seems to assume that we much <b>show</b> everything. Despite the popular misunderstood rule, some things are better <b>told</b> than <b>shown</b>. I think <i>Gerald cursed the day of his mother’s birth,</i> is a much more interesting sentence than anything I can come up with that has profanity in it and yet we get the idea. We can also <b>show</b> people’s reaction to profanity and get far more meaning than what we’d get from the word itself. <i>I learned to choose my words carefully at an early age. I thought I was cool when I said that word to my mother. I watched her face turn red and then a dark maroon. “Young man, I don’t want to ever hear you use that word again!” She marched me straight to the bathroom and I spent some quality time with a bar soap in my mouth, after which I got three on the backside.</i>Timothy Fishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06554064732811895577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-49931754424692785242010-07-09T09:03:05.567-04:002010-07-09T09:03:05.567-04:00I agree Terry. Using profanity is cheap writing ju...I agree Terry. Using profanity is cheap writing just for the shock factor. <br /><br />But great writing is making the audience feel and know the word without saying it.<br /><br />My Pastor often says about the outside world and their profanity...that they are just speaking their language.<br /><br />God says we are a peculiar people, set apart from that nonsense.Bonnie S. Calhounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11769607640246518804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-31510534511660247712010-07-09T04:52:57.272-04:002010-07-09T04:52:57.272-04:00Mr. Burns, you said
*I agree, bad men use bad ...Mr. Burns, you said <br /> *I agree, bad men use bad language, and I show that all the time. But I never use the language, I simply show them doing it. People know what the words are, they don't need me to spell it out for them, they just want to see the emotions and the body language, to see the people using the language.*<br /> *How* do you *show* them using the language? ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-82240869472037526372010-07-08T21:16:10.644-04:002010-07-08T21:16:10.644-04:00This is a good post Terry. I'm seeing more sla...This is a good post Terry. I'm seeing more slang and even some swear words from some of my favorite CBA publishers and authors. One editor told me that the younger generation just talks different than I do and that some of these words that I don't care for are part of their every day language. I don't quite know what to think about this, but I hope it doesn't go too far. I read a book recently that I loved, but there were a few questionable (to me anyway) words in it. It is published by a very conservative publisher.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-55615291543980793802010-07-08T19:15:48.689-04:002010-07-08T19:15:48.689-04:00On the use of profanity in Christian books: Jesus...On the use of profanity in Christian books: Jesus needs to be at the core, not just a varnish; too many Christians live that way anyway. <br /><br />Kevin Don Levellie, The Book Of Opinions 4:212Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16894459418749386885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-13376580516115856332010-07-08T17:38:29.908-04:002010-07-08T17:38:29.908-04:00Sorry Jim, but I deleted your post. As I said I do...Sorry Jim, but I deleted your post. As I said I do not wish to have my name associated with profanity and that includes here even if I understand and agree with the point you are making.<br /><br />TerryTerry Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14526255183090554401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-56148714719655917992010-07-08T17:20:58.867-04:002010-07-08T17:20:58.867-04:00Good thoughts, Terry. I think about "whatsoev...Good thoughts, Terry. I think about "whatsoever things are pure...lovely...." think on these things. What a challenge for readers and writers. I think how Jesus said if we love and obey Him, we'll see Him in our lives more. What a goal. I'd love that. But I'll never completely do either in this life. I hope I won't be tempted not to try. And I hope I'll never tempt others not to. Lead me not, let me lead them not, into temptation. Oy.Margo Carmichaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04406873560965068584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-86597134539940917712010-07-08T17:20:23.855-04:002010-07-08T17:20:23.855-04:00Good thoughts, Terry. I think about "whatsoev...Good thoughts, Terry. I think about "whatsoever things are pure...lovely...." think on these things. What a challenge for readers and writers. I think how Jesus said if we love and obey Him, we'll see Him in our lives more. What a goal. I'd love that. But I'll never completely do either in this life. I hope I won't be tempted not to try. And I hope I'll never tempt others not to. Lead me not, let me lead them not, into temptation. Oy.Margo Carmichaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04406873560965068584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-80088068964869353262010-07-08T16:05:01.218-04:002010-07-08T16:05:01.218-04:00Here is what I believe for ME and MY WRITING: My g...Here is what I believe for ME and MY WRITING: My goal as a Christian (which trickles over into everything I say and do) is to walk as closely to God as I possibly can, not see how far I can stray and still be "okay." As a Christian, I'm called to holiness. How can my work honor Him if it matches what the world would do?Kim Vogel Sawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14338945088038961014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-4448685266908991692010-07-08T15:03:22.412-04:002010-07-08T15:03:22.412-04:00Some of the most romantic, heart wrenching, and mo...Some of the most romantic, heart wrenching, and moving movies got their point across with more stringent rules than we have in the Christian publishing industry.<br /><br />Freedom to put in risque or shocking material doesn't make you a better writer. Rising to the challenge of exploring a hard topic while maintaining integrity WILL make you a better more creative writer.<br /><br />I want to be proud to have my name on the cover of a book.Raquel Byrneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870113745683162915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-91350637440532558112010-07-08T13:19:04.027-04:002010-07-08T13:19:04.027-04:00I appreciate your stand, Terry. As much as I love ...I appreciate your stand, Terry. As much as I love certain ABA writers, I cringe at some of the language. NOT needed, and their writing would be just as effective. Thanks for writing this post.<br /><br />http://sunnebnkwrtr.blogspot.comCarolinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765332646987825952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-8956133538759139232010-07-08T11:56:07.809-04:002010-07-08T11:56:07.809-04:00When my husband does house repairs, he can make &q...When my husband does house repairs, he can make "boogars!" sound as lethal as any swear word.Jeanette Levelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12898750484193832082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-45704793525888776402010-07-08T11:06:39.412-04:002010-07-08T11:06:39.412-04:00I agree...and was hoping someone would post a comm...I agree...and was hoping someone would post a comment with a logical reason to disagree so I could understand why it's acceptable a bit more, bc I don't think it is.Annette W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02498639468291720406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2443765296489868573.post-55861565691870762752010-07-08T10:13:57.175-04:002010-07-08T10:13:57.175-04:00The moral issue is the biggest one. We answer to a...The moral issue is the biggest one. We answer to a higher authority than just readers and publishers. What does God say about it? So you are right in being more concerned about your witness.<br /><br />But I also think crude actions such as sex or cursing is an easy out. Take movie scripts, for instance. Quality films have a story. If they aren't sure of themselves, they plug a four letter word in every few sentences and a whole lot of nudity. It's lazy. It's worldly. And it's low quality.<br /><br />That's why I think Christian writers are some of the best in the world. We have a harder, more noble job. And I love it!<br /><br />~Britt MitchellBesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08397116071436885635noreply@blogger.com